So just what is "the truth"???

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So just what is "the truth"???

Aug 16, 2012
jensman1903   Man 49yrs

An Islamic Imam, a Jewish Rabi and a Catholic Priest each, in turn, give a speach (no this isn't a joke, just an example, sorry). Each is espousing the doctrines of their own religion. So, who is lying and who is telling the truth?

 

Well, as it turns out, none are lying as a lie is a statement made that the speaker knows to be false. As they all believe that their own respective religion is the one true religion, they are not lying.

 

Also, it would appear, that they are all telling the truth. Truth is a philosophical subject and different schools of philosophy have different criterion of truth.Social constructivism holds that truth is constructed by social processes, is historically and culturally specific, and that it is in part shaped through the power struggles within a community. Constructivism views all of our knowledge as "constructed". Consensus theory holds that truth is whatever is agreed upon, or in some versions, might come to be agreed upon, by some specified group.

 

Are any of them telling us facts? No, they are not. The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability, that is whether it can be proven to correspond to experience. Religious "truths" can not be proven and so can't be accepted as factual.

 

Very muddy isn't it? Everyone holds to their own truths. Having a different set of ideals to someone else does not make one or the other a liar. Further, everybody lies. If everybody lies, at what point do we label them a liar. Is it a habitual liar, where every word that comes from their mouth is false or is it simply someone keeping secrets. If it's the later, well I guess we're all liars. I've known several people who claim that they never lie. It has been my experience that these are the most decietful people and they keep making the claim merely to build up their own credibilty. Basically honest people really don't need to keep reminding you of their sincerity all the time.

 

I've got one more for you. Friedrich Nietzsche wrote that truth should be used only as long as it promoted life and prosperity, and he felt that an untruth was better than truth if it had life enhancement as a consequence.

 

So which version of truth do you hold to??

Aug 16, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post
Hesione

Truth?

In Buddhism there are two truths,conventional worldly truth and ultimate truth,emptiness.x Hugs H

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Fun2Play2500   Couple Man 54yrs Woman 42yrs

Profound and deep ...

The 'truth' is only ever from the perspective of the person who purports to speak it. Everyone's 'truth' is different ... the rashamon theory ... Personally, I (Mrs FP) don't  hold much stock in post-modern or post-intellectual theories, if but to say, there are at least three sides to every story: mine, yours and what everyone else reckons.

Every person evaluates and determines a situation, relationship, a confluence etc, from the basis of what has gone before and by extension, what has shaped their psyche.  Having said that, no excuse for being an arsehole your whole life because your parents stuffed you up.  We all have free will and, hopefully, the capacity to overcome obstacles and the ability to look forward to a better life other than which may have been bequeathed to us

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MsVelvetblue

I'm Jewish and apparently we are God's Chosen people

Its kinda of a nice comforting thought The problem is we are still waiting for the Messiah.......one has to wonder , how much longer do we have to wait ? and why as I write this do Monty Python "Life  of Brian " lines keep running thru my head ???
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MsVelvetblue

Apologies jensman

There was suppose to be a point to my above post about truth but posted before I wrote it !!! I'm so stuffed up with flu/whooping cough etc I'm not making sense ... And one should not be let loose on the forums  when they are incoherent !!!! Ok im out of here ...bed here I come !!! Truth is.... I'm sick .... Ggrrr
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L777xxx   Woman 45yrs

The Truth?

Don't we all have an internal 'meter' that 'twinges' if we're telling a porky?
If we were without ego there would be no lies and no question of 'truth' ...?
It's only the ego that has fear, inadequacy, manipulation, desire, greed, etc ...
A new born babe has no lies and no need for them ... isn't it wonderful what we teach them?
... truth is from the depth of the heart ... once all the 'protective' layers are peeled away ...?
... hence every individual has their own absolute truth ... in their emptiness ... void of the ego ...?

'Factual' Truths? ... also an interesting perspective ... how do we 'measure' or 'verify' spiritual experiences, dreamtime, sixth sense, alternative healing methods?  Perceived by some and not others?  'Scientifically' 'banished' to the realms of 'imagination' due to being unable to measure / prove them?  But often anecdotely accepted by millions.  Do we not recall ... the world being flat? ... electricity being invisible? ... frequencies of light and sound not visible/audible to the human's sensory organs? ... what about the 'witchcraft' of a computer, telephone, TV? ... oh I am sure there are many, many more examples of our ability to accept new 'truths' once they become 'measurable' by science ... why does science poo hoo the possibilities when we have constantly been shown through history that we don't know everything and quite often our assumed facts/truths are proven way off the mark once a new method of 'measuring' comes along ... why don't we bleed someone to death in an attempt to heal them anymore? ... because we know better? ... learnt from experience? ... have we not learnt from experience that there are endless possibilities and we are only making fools of ourselves to discount the possibilities ...

Interesting philosophical topic ...
Jensman are you looking for a discussion without snapping, snarling, biting and heckling?  LOL

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TomatoSauce33   Man 21yrs

Banana Cake



    Friedrich Nietzsche wrote that truth should be used only as long as it promoted life and prosperity, and he felt that an untruth was better than truth if it had life enhancement as a consequence.    


This

Aug 17, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post
XS   Woman 41yrs

It's true that...

If a person believes what they say they are speaking the truth as they know it :)
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kinky_master   Man 46yrs

The Truth is overrated

Mischeviouslad nearly got it right.

Even the old Romans knew:

In Vino Veritas - which means in wine there is truth.

And when you have drunken too much you will proclaim the truth, or any truth for that matter regardless of who you might hurt or embarrass – or for that matter punch or kill.

Some people seem to get into the state where they feel they must proclaim their truth as they see it – even without drinking – and regardless of their motives – they are the dangerous ones.

Robert Heinlein once wrote words to the effect of:
He who tells the whole truth all the time is a sadist.

 

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Cassandra_Jayne   Woman 33yrs

For me: love is the only truth

Oh jensman I could spend days pulling this apart...but as a wise man once told me K.I.S.S ;)... It is like (as Hesione has suggested) you are discussing two things: conventional worldly truth and ultimate truth.... In the case of the conventional truth, this is what you refer to Nietzsche discussing...And I hold to the view that if a psychotic ex-boyfriend of my sister (say) came to my door wanting to kill her, while I was hiding her in the back room, and asked me if I knew where she was, I would lie.... As for 'ultimate' truth - the example of the religious views ... This for me is more simple - it reminds me of the story of 3 men blindfolded standing on different sides of an elephant.... After, when asked to describe the elephant,  one man says long, squishy and tubular like... Another long thin and bristly on the end ... And the other flat and wrinkly... Though different, it is still the same: an elephant ... I lie all the time to my parents, cause quite frankly it's none of their business ... Though I'm fucking useless at it - we are constantly confronted with this... Liars with the intention for constant selfish gain or to hurt others, suffer in their own delusions - they are not in my life and I couldn't give a shit about them - Simple! ... :)  Cassandra 
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Miketheduc   Man 53yrs

Fishing

Nah I just reckon the J man is fishing for a man hiding behing a bush.

 

Oh and why post such a philosophical scribe on a sex site where I want to keep my blood going to another part of my anatomy.

 

Mike

 

 

Aug 17, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post
Smilingwithfun   Man 53yrs

Subject Matter

Perhaps all 3 where Lying truthfully or Truthfully lying.Covers all bases.
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jensman1903   Man 49yrs

Actually a bigger turn out than I expected for this topic. ....Cool.

Quoting 'Hesione'

In Buddhism there are two truths,conventional worldly truth and ultimate truth,emptiness.x Hugs H


I deliberately left Buddhist Monk out of my example because the Buddha's truisms ring truer to my ears than the others.

 

 

Quoting 'Fun2Play2500'
The 'truth' is only ever from the perspective of the person who purports to speak it. Everyone's 'truth' is different ... the rashamon theory ... Personally, I (Mrs FP) don't  hold much stock in post-modern or post-intellectual theories, if but to say, there are at least three sides to every story: mine, yours and what everyone else reckons.

Every person evaluates and determines a situation, relationship, a confluence etc, from the basis of what has gone before and by extension, what has shaped their psyche.  Having said that, no excuse for being an arsehole your whole life because your parents stuffed you up.  We all have free will and, hopefully, the capacity to overcome obstacles and the ability to look forward to a better life other than which may have been bequeathed to us


Have you ever seen Kurosawa's Rasomon? Remarkable film. Mifune as one of the world's greatest actors regardless of language.

 

 

Quoting 'MsVelvetblue'
Its kinda of a nice comforting thought The problem is we are still waiting for the Messiah.......one has to wonder , how much longer do we have to wait ? and why as I write this do Monty Python "Life  of Brian " lines keep running thru my head ???


I think you have presented at least one excellant point. The Monty Python crew had a great way at approaching the truth.

 

 

Quoting 'L777xxx'

Jensman are you looking for a discussion without snapping, snarling, biting and heckling?  LOL


Hehehehe, naw, never.

 

Quoting 'kinky_master'

Robert Heinlein once wrote words to the effect of:
He who tells the whole truth all the time is a sadist.

 

 


...and don't we all know someone just like that.

 

Quoting 'Cassandra_Jayne'
Oh jensman I could spend days pulling this apart...but as a wise man once told me K.I.S.S ;)... It is like (as Hesione has suggested) you are discussing two things: conventional worldly truth and ultimate truth.... In the case of the conventional truth, this is what you refer to Nietzsche discussing...And I hold to the view that if a psychotic ex-boyfriend of my sister (say) came to my door wanting to kill her, while I was hiding her in the back room, and asked me if I knew where she was, I would lie.... As for 'ultimate' truth - the example of the religious views ... This for me is more simple - it reminds me of the story of 3 men blindfolded standing on different sides of an elephant.... After, when asked to describe the elephant,  one man says long, squishy and tubular like... Another long thin and bristly on the end ... And the other flat and wrinkly... Though different, it is still the same: an elephant ... I lie all the time to my parents, cause quite frankly it's none of their business ... Though I'm fucking useless at it - we are constantly confronted with this... Liars with the intention for constant selfish gain or to hurt others, suffer in their own delusions - they are not in my life and I couldn't give a shit about them - Simple! ... :)  Cassandra 


I can't understand why you would want to pull it apart, you expressed it perfectly. Thank you.

 

Quoting 'miketheduc'

Nah I just reckon the J man is fishing for a man hiding behing a bush.

 

 

 

...and the bitch standing next to him and I'm carefully watching that guy over the grassy knoll.

I actually post subjects like this here because it's an 'adult' site with plenty of open-minded members (yes and several with closed minds). I don't really believe your protest, Mike, I think you'd rather join in a discussion like this than discuss the size of someone's cock. By the way, if ever you notice me using your name in a sentence where I'm berating the subject for his ignorance, arrogance and hypocrisy, rest assured, I'm not talking 'bout you.


Aug 17, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post
Miketheduc   Man 53yrs

J Man

Its cool mate I was just was jaut taking the renal waste ot of you and the man behind the bush.

I like that there are adult discssions on here that aren't just about the obvious.

I have always enjoyed open and vigourous discussion/argumnent.

You could start a forum on Solipsism and I would join, just because "I think therefore you are".

Culturally relative truth has had me going all frothy at the mouth just because some things like religion are a man made "truth".

Truth has always been a slippery subject and as you have pointed out things depend on the point of culturallt relative position you are in.

I personally hold a constructivist utilitarian science orientated philosophy that hold religion and other culturally recieved belief systems in  relativley poo rfavour.

Mike 

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Cassandra_Jayne   Woman 33yrs

Thanks jensman and a pleasure :) :) ... For your understanding

I love philosophy and studied it at uni ... Cass :) x
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Miketheduc   Man 53yrs

And another thing

Oh and damn you for posting a thoughtful intelligent question.

 

It means I have to actually think about "things" like relative truth, justification, cultural relativism.

 

I generally come on here for some light entertainment and jocularity after a night looking after the sick.

Now you want me to think?

Damn you apes....

Mike

Aug 17, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post
Hesione

Sometimes

to lie is a great kindness,sometimes the truth can be incredibly hurtful to the other.IMO it all depends on your motivation,do I tell the truth and hurt someone or do I lie to protect them from unnecessary pain?

However if I lie to deceive , hurt you or gain advantage then that is causing pain.I know this is very subjective  and what  you might do in similar circumstancs  could be quite different to me,but if we are clear about our motivation we will probably make the right decision.

I too am very supicious Jensman of anyone who claims they never lie.xHugs H

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Litonya   Woman 56yrs

Hmmm

Bummer I cant say more...or did I lie just now?

Ohh I know, when I have to go to court and swear....I will tell the truth and nothing but the truth as God is my witness......I tell the truth.......or dont I?

 

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pleasuredome449

C'mon people,, really

Truth is science come on!!!!! Religion is just many books of fairytales. Did a virgin really give birth? What a load of rubbish. Most of these books of fantasies were written a hell of a long time ago but now we have SCIENCE that can dispel most myths between their pages. Jesus (sorry, I say that in just instead of the other swear words on offer) I get my people have the need to connect and believe but me I'm going with proof, fact and the truth.

 

May 'god' be with y'all!

Aug 18, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post

Well..

In Jensmans story, their truths are all very similar.  All of those faith structures are Abrahamic, so ostensibly the same.  It's only those that practice them that would have you believe any different.  I know of a Catholic family that will argue they are not Christian and are offended if you call them such.  "Catholics are Catholics and Christians are Christians".  It's what's been drummed into them by their local preachers.  People who's opinion they trust.  That is their truth.

As a fan of Kant's categorical imperative, I'd be compelled to be honest about the whereabouts of my sister.  Though I'd back my self to talk the mad ex boyfriend down or stop him physically if it came to that.  So maybe that's not much of a test of Truth.

I don't ever think truth is hurtful.  It's often obvious, so you need not say anything.  So there's no need for hurt.  Opinions however could hurt the fragile.  Though taking them on board is a choice people often seem to take.  This puzzles me.  Why would somone choose to get all upset by things said by a person they have next to zero respect for?  Still, we see it happen often.

Though sometimes a little truth can remind us of the things we need to attend to.  I'd not be the bloke I am now were it not for the honesty of my friends.

Did you notice how the word "honesty" seems softer than the word truth?
Aug 20, 2012 Report Abuse  |   Reply with Quote  |   Reply Reply Post

Pffftt..

This was an interesting subject and I was pretty happy with my last post.  But it seems the thread has died..

~frouns~

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